Revo in Alberta!!!

[Canadian Turbo]

Re: Revo in Alberta!!!

Thats why mk3s are the shizz cuz more experience with all the mods available

However I totally agree with Kris, I wonder how much Revo support is based on marketing, word of mouth and it being the latest thing.

[R_Ethug]

Re: Revo in Alberta!!!

lol kris.. I just want to have something different than everyone else. All brands of chips agree with me. Up,GIAC,APR, and Revo all have killer dynos posted up on vortex. In the end I guess its what you want to do with your car. I find the SPS switchers pretty nifty.

[tex_the_t_rex]

Re: Revo in Alberta!!!

Does anyone know what's going on with the law suit between APR and REVO?

Just curious...

[R_Ethug]

Re: Revo in Alberta!!!

to my knowledge it was settled in the US or thrown out and in europe it might still be going on. I think nobody honestly cares anymore. Revo has been out well they came out right when I bought my car because I remember Chris asking about it at the very first meet I came too (before NVD even lol ) so yea I think nobody cares its been a 11mos.

[1.8Trip]

Re: Revo in Alberta!!!

I'm just looking for something switchable. As I've said before, If UP had the switch here, I would have gotten it a long time ago cuz local support (espescially from a member of the club) is a very good thing.

[Khyron]

Re: Revo in Alberta!!!

This thread is both amusing and sad...

Here are a couple of things I have to say on the subject of chips.

1. There is no way to tell what the results will be on your car.
2. All of the manufacturers tested their own chips with different setups.

Maybe not exactly, but you can estimate. Dynos tell you the final picture for your car. There have been several comparisons with identical setups for exactly this reason.

So comparing the numbers of torque and horsepower that the chip-makers say is pointless.

If one says 220, another says 190 I'm going with the 220. If it's wrong, then I'd get a refund.

Also some things to remember:

1. There is only so much boost that can be made by the stock turbo.
2. The program used by the ECU is really not that complicated.
3. All of the companies who have reverse engineered it know how it works.

Although I do not like to throw out too much second-hand knowledge from Vortex, I know that some people who tried the 4-bar program had to go back to the 3-bar, and that a couple Revo dealers no longer do/recommend the 4-bar fpr program.

It does not make much sense to me why you would need a 4-bar FPR since the existing fuel setup is not maxed out with just a chip.

If you are comparing these chips based on what people on Vortex say, you must realize that every Vortexer just votes for the product that:

1. They themselves own. or
2. Is the "latest fad".

If you look through history, you will see that at different times there were huge fads in which everyone jumps on board a particular mod. Eventually it settles down and people realistically find out that it is not such a big deal.

It's not all about power - smoothness, stealth, switchability and cost are all other important factors. Most people that get the 4bar program are planning on upgrading turbo in the future so why not. The only con is you run a bit rich.

Anyhow, Revo is new and so I guess I can see why a lot of people are excited to try it. However, I can already see the posts coming where previously un-chipped people who have no basis for comparison start posting how they got Revo and it is the "best" according to their "butt dyno" etc etc. Then it just creates a viscious circle where new readers begin to believe unsubstantiated opinion as fact, and they themselves go purchase the product and make their own claims.... Sigh.

It's new HERE but it's been around for over a year. Hundreds of threads and posts later, the results indicate it's as good as it get for power (more or less) and it's one of the smoother programs. I've seen many Revo dynos as well as APR dynos. You may be confusing what you read in the MK4 forum with what is in the Forced Induction and 1.8T forums.

If everyone just went with the "standard stuff" we'd all have the same crap. I seem to recall MANY naysayers bitching that I would hate my 2.25 inch Magnaflow, lose power, etc - I did research, took the risk and got a dyno. Now the naysayers are silent.

If I get Revo and come on bragging about how good the power is, you can bet your butt there will be a dyno coming as well to back it up. And if the results are bad, oh well I either return it or live with the choice.

Khyron

[R_Ethug]

Re: Revo in Alberta!!!

word geoff with my mods i hope to do 190+ at the wheels.. i used to say high numbers to piss off that one guy with that white jetta but i really do hope i can get that high.. if not then back to the drawing board lol

[Kor]

Re: Revo in Alberta!!!

I am not trying to start an argument or anything, so don't get the wrong impression here... I will just play the 'devil's advocate' to help some readers think about things.

Maybe not exactly, but you can estimate. Dynos tell you the final picture for your car. There have been several comparisons with identical setups for exactly this reason.

They do not tell you the final picture for your car. First, I don't know of any scientific comparisons, so please let me know where I can find one. Second, even if such a comparison exists, you would need to build your car exactly as used in the comparison for there to be any relevance. Car modifications are not additive. Any change whatsoever may have varried effects.

If one says 220, another says 190 I'm going with the 220. If it's wrong, then I'd get a refund.

I guarantee that when you dyno you do not get exactly what they advertise. Moreover, it is not about whether the chip companies 'lie' or 'inflate their numbers'. They use different dynos. They test in different conditions. The numbers cannot be compared except in the very general sense.

It's not all about power - smoothness, stealth, switchability and cost are all other important factors. Most people that get the 4bar program are planning on upgrading turbo in the future so why not. The only con is you run a bit rich.

What defines smoothness? Do you mean a steady (predictable) acceleration through the powerband? How do you measure this? It may be possible to infer the smoothness from a dyno graph, however no one has actually made a comparison (again) and even if you did, how would you be able to attribute the smoothness to the chip alone?

What is stealth? You can detect anything with the proper amount of effort. I assume that you mean you can 'turn it off' so that it is not detectable on a test-drive.

Stealth is an issue if you have no supporting mods. If you plan on having a N75, DV, TIP or anything like that, your stealth is useless. I actually went to the dealership with a 100% stock car except for a forge DV, and they *would not believe* that I was not chipped. They actually told me I was lying.

I guess you can make up scenarios for whether or not this will happen to you or if it is legally binding or whatever, but you will fool only yourself.

It's new HERE but it's been around for over a year. Hundreds of threads and posts later, the results indicate it's as good as it get for power (more or less) and it's one of the smoother programs. I've seen many Revo dynos as well as APR dynos. You may be confusing what you read in the MK4 forum with what is in the Forced Induction and 1.8T forums.

First of all, you don't know what I read but I guarantee you that I keep abreast of quite a bit of reading.

Secondly, you may have seen dyno plots, but were they scientific tests? If not, then they have no credibility with me.

Third, the hundreds-of-threads issue just goes back to my orginal post. These threads are based on hype, marketing, the testimonials of people who have not made any kind of comparison just to justify their own purchase, and self-perpetuating patterns of knowledge transfer.

If everyone just went with the "standard stuff" we'd all have the same crap.

I agree that it is good to try different things. It is BAD to evaluate those things on a measurable scale without actually measuring, without a scientific method, and without any basis for comparison.

If I get Revo and come on bragging about how good the power is, you can bet your butt there will be a dyno coming as well to back it up. And if the results are bad, oh well I either return it or live with the choice.

Let's take me for an example.

Right now, I have a fairly decent dyno plot from C1. I will not be at ALL surprised if someone (or many people) do better this season, on the same dyno machine. In general there are more mods and better informed mods being made by the people in the club now. I often post hoping that people can learn from my mistakes and create a better, faster car than me. By all means, get a dyno and be happy with your power gains. However, unless you have the exact same mods as I have, on the exact same car, then you can't say that your chip dyno's higher than mine. That would just be illogical.

[Simon]

Re: Revo in Alberta!!!

B====D

[Khyron]

Re: Revo in Alberta!!!

They do not tell you the final picture for your car. First, I don't know of any scientific comparisons, so please let me know where I can find one. Second, even if such a comparison exists, you would need to build your car exactly as used in the comparison for there to be any relevance. Car modifications are not additive. Any change whatsoever may have varried effects.

I dunno about you, but I'm building a car, not a space shuttle. I do not need precision - I don't care about 2-3 hp here nor there. You certainly CAN make informed generalisations without definitive labratory testing. It's called statistics and in large enough sample sizes, it IS just as valid as a single lab test. If 200 people buy something and 95% of them come back with positive numbers, and they all fall within a range of gains, it is valid to assume your car will fall in that range as well. Not guaranteed 100 percent as there are odd cases, but it's good enough for me.

It's not like someone with 1 exhaust gets 300 hp with a chip where someone with a different exhaust gets 250. Sure different cars can have different results but all within a logical scale. We know that exhausts typically deal within a 1-10 hp gain.

Ie, there is no cat-back system out there that will give you 20+ hp. It COULD happen if your old exhaust had major flaws or damage. But I would feel safe saying that statement as fact.

I guarantee that when you dyno you do not get exactly what they advertise. Moreover, it is not about whether the chip companies 'lie' or 'inflate their numbers'. They use different dynos. They test in different conditions. The numbers cannot be compared except in the very general sense.

Don't care. As long as the results fall in the expected range I'm happy. You can get different results depending on the day, time of year, quality of the gas, blah blah blah. You can't lock down all the variables, so it's wise to not even try.

What defines smoothness? Do you mean a steady (predictable) acceleration through the powerband? How do you measure this? It may be possible to infer the smoothness from a dyno graph, however no one has actually made a comparison (again) and even if you did, how would you be able to attribute the smoothness to the chip alone?

By comparing it to stock. If 10 people say "Hey, I installed this chip and now I lurch all the time" , that's a red flag. If those 10 people say "Damn, power comes in much smoother" and their dyno plots are less jagged, that's a good sign. There may be no metric but you can certainly make comparisons.

What is stealth? You can detect anything with the proper amount of effort. I assume that you mean you can 'turn it off' so that it is not detectable on a test-drive.

Stealth is an issue if you have no supporting mods. If you plan on having a N75, DV, TIP or anything like that, your stealth is useless. I actually went to the dealership with a 100% stock car except for a forge DV, and they *would not believe* that I was not chipped. They actually told me I was lying.

I would spit in their face and go somewhere else. I have a boost gauge - that doesn't mean crap. If VW dealers could be trusted to be fair and reasonable, we wouldn't need stealth. I'm not going to defraud my dealer. If I blow my turbo or snap my diff I'll buy a new one. But I don't want to hear **** about how some sensor won't be covered because of a chip. That's one of the reasons I'm leaving my airbox alone - the dealer DOES have a case for denying you. And being able to switch to 91 in the winter then go with 94 in the summer and switch programs - that's just gravy.

First of all, you don't know what I read but I guarantee you that I keep abreast of quite a bit of reading.

Secondly, you may have seen dyno plots, but were they scientific tests? If not, then they have no credibility with me.

Third, the hundreds-of-threads issue just goes back to my orginal post. These threads are based on hype, marketing, the testimonials of people who have not made any kind of comparison just to justify their own purchase, and self-perpetuating patterns of knowledge transfer.

If you don't accept dynos as reasonable proof of gains, then you might as well quit now. Nothing is absolute.

You can tell who's voting just because they love their product (which in its own way carries it's own weight) . The best reviews are by people who have had different chips in the same car, or at least have owned multiple chips. You could claim we're following the herd regardless of which chip we pick - they all have their rabbid supporters. Revo, APR, GIAC, Upsolute - the best threads are by the ones who switch from one chip to another. Sure, one or two might be exagerating to justify the change, but again, statistics comes into play.

If you say "Prove there are dinosaurs", and I hand you a bone, do you say "Not enough - get me another!"? At some point you have to accept things on faith in your research.

I agree that it is good to try different things. It is BAD to evaluate those things on a measurable scale without actually measuring, without a scientific method, and without any basis for comparison.

Take TVs. I want a big screen. I walk into a store and I decide which one has the best picture. It's subjective and there is no accurate scale of "betterness". But after reading reviews, you find a majority of people like one over another, you might want to go check for yourself.

Right now, I have a fairly decent dyno plot from C1. I will not be at ALL surprised if someone (or many people) do better this season, on the same dyno machine. In general there are more mods and better informed mods being made by the people in the club now. I often post hoping that people can learn from my mistakes and create a better, faster car than me. By all means, get a dyno and be happy with your power gains. However, unless you have the exact same mods as I have, on the exact same car, then you can't say that your chip dyno's higher than mine. That would just be illogical.

Again, it's scale. If our before dynos are close, and my after dyno was 40 HP more than yours, I can and will claim with 100 percent certainty that my chip is superior. If the after dyno is within a range that can be explained by differences in bolt on mods, then I wouldn't make that claim. But I can tell you that if I get better numbers with a chip and cat back than someone else with a turbo back, chip, intake and a FMIC I will be feeling pretty good about my chip selection, regardless of proof.

Khyron

[Khyron]

Re: Revo in Alberta!!!

B====D

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Khyron

[R_Ethug]

Re: Revo in Alberta!!!

jesus christ guys next time i won't bother posting this stuff and i'll just go get it and come back and say hey look what i got.. bickering is annoying last week it was vr6 vs 1.8t and now its lays vs old dutch

[Khyron]

Re: Revo in Alberta!!!

jesus christ guys next time i won't bother posting this stuff and i'll just go get it and come back and say hey look what i got.. bickering is annoying last week it was vr6 vs 1.8t and now its lays vs old dutch

I don't think we're bickering. I have certainly been swayed in the past by a good debate, it's healthy and how things get improved.

Edit: And since there's no new mods to put on, it makes sense to argue about them.

Khyron

[Aleks]

Re: Revo in Alberta!!!

This thread is both amusing and sad...

Here are a couple of things I have to say on the subject of chips.

1. There is no way to tell what the results will be on your car.
2. All of the manufacturers tested their own chips with different setups.

So comparing the numbers of torque and horsepower that the chip-makers say is pointless.

Also some things to remember:

1. There is only so much boost that can be made by the stock turbo.
2. The program used by the ECU is really not that complicated.
3. All of the companies who have reverse engineered it know how it works.

First off Kor Chill out....I put a little thing there that says this was comparisons of MANUFACTURER claims, I understand they may not accurate and whatnot.....but if Volkswagon says your car makes 180hp, then the Jetta must really be putting out about 140ish by your outlook...they just inflate the numbers to look better than Honda...right?

If you look through history, you will see that at different times there were huge fads in which everyone jumps on board a particular mod. Eventually it settles down and people realistically find out that it is not such a big deal.

Anyhow, Revo is new and so I guess I can see why a lot of people are excited to try it. However, I can already see the posts coming where previously un-chipped people who have no basis for comparison start posting how they got Revo and it is the "best" according to their "butt dyno" etc etc. Then it just creates a viscious circle where new readers begin to believe unsubstantiated opinion as fact, and they themselves go purchase the product and make their own claims.... Sigh.

Yeah, you're right, I want revo for the fad....cause its cool on the Tex....I'm not trying to be an ass here, but this is a little over analysing the difference between 10hp! Maybe they are the best, maybe not, as someone else said the result is different on everyones car! So buy what you can afford....I personally don't care what chip I get....they all equal more power in one way or another, but if I can't go by manufacturer claims, then where do I START shopping?? Now we can move on to the actual testimonials on other boards....anywho, I've ranted enough, no offense meant...

Alex

[R_Ethug]

Re: Revo in Alberta!!!

LOL guys.. next weekend who wants to road trip up with me then? i think bart wants to ride along.. remember guys simon is an instigator that will talk trash to get you riled up.. geoff likes to make his point and so does Kris.. kris hates people talking HP because it bugs him thats why i said my samco gives me 10HP LOL..