Winter Rubber

[kuhli]

yes but...

Sure winter tires are superior in snow.

What about dry, clean pavement? Emergency moves? The vehicles I've had winters on destroyed dry winter weather enjoyment of the car and were still only marginally better than A/S in the snow.

Your traction limits are really low in terms of handling in the winter with either snows or A/S. Additionally your dry weather(majority of the time) braking and emergency capabilities are vastly decreased. Why have really crappy tires when you'd like to be enjoying your car in the winter dry?

[MrHeavyFoot]

I'm guilty of rolling on all seasons too. I keep meaning to get winter tires one of these years, but since the all seasons don't get used in the summer, they're damn near like new. Besides, I already have 3 sets of wheels and tires. Who needs a fourth? :mrscrewy:

As for changing tires, if you are going to use the VW jack, be careful and make sure you are on a nice, flat level surface. That thing ain't too sturdy. It's a good idea to use a torque wrench, but you'll be fine if you put them on with the supplied wrench, and then go borrow a torue wrench. Oddly enough, the problem isn't that you can't get them tight enough, it's that most people just reef on the thing and get them too tight. That's where the potential for damage is. It's also a good idea to retorque after 30-50 km. (Just make sure they are still tight enough.)

[Kor]

Nick: Yeah I do suck at getting my car to slide around

Additionally your dry weather(majority of the time) braking and emergency capabilities are vastly decreased.

How do you figure this?

[Holksvagon]

Re: yes but...

Originally posted by kuhli
Sure winter tires are superior in snow.

What about dry, clean pavement? Emergency moves? The vehicles I've had winters on destroyed dry winter weather enjoyment of the car and were still only marginally better than A/S in the snow.

Your traction limits are really low in terms of handling in the winter with either snows or A/S. Additionally your dry weather(majority of the time) braking and emergency capabilities are vastly decreased. Why have really crappy tires when you'd like to be enjoying your car in the winter dry?

I would also like to know where u are getting this info... Sure they wont be as good as new summer rubber but as for mine they are rated up to 240km/hr and feel great to me..... its winter so what the hell are you doin racing around anyways?

[kuhli]

Not trying to start a storm here, but...

you said...its winter so what the hell are you doin racing around anyways?

Exactly, Winter driving conditions don't allow you to explore the capabilities of our car, now in Calgary's winter(I know you're in Edmonton) we've 30 to 60 days in a winter that are very unlike winter driving conditions(chinook, mmm, chinook). And on those days you do have an opportunity to explore and enjoy the car a bit. With winter tires you don't.

Where am I getting that winter tires don't perform as well as all season, or that a/s don't perform as well as summer in good conditions? Summer tires have tread patterns with big, broad blocks of rubber that don't bend or flex very much, these big tread blocks provide peak traction when traction is good. A/S have more broach cuts in the tread block to provide a bit better traction under rainy (the primary advantage) and winter conditions. Finally, winter tires are heavily siped to provide the most opportunity to give traction under adverse conditions.

In dry weather all this siping and reduced tread block size reduce the effective area of the tire on the ground at any time - LESS TRACTION. Therefore, increased stopping distances, reduced cornering and poorer emergency handling.

If I lived in Edmonton(I did as a child) I would probably do the snow tire thing, in Calgary I feel there isn't enough real winter days to justify their purchase(and short life). Also, there are some enjoyable winter driving days to be had!

[Kor]

I love arguments!

There are factors other than the tread pattern and block size when it comes to ranking winter tires on dry pavement. There are many other elements in the mix including rubber compound (materials). So the sacrifice made when using a winter tire on dry surfaces might be an increased rate of wear, and NOT a hit to traction performance. Temperature is a big concern. Did you know that all season tires begin to lose their grip below 10 degrees C because of the materials used? So even on DRY roads if its cold you may suffer reduced traction compared to a winter tire!

Winter tires can give you up to a 50 percent measured traction increase over all-season tires in winter conditions. This is quite a bit. Conversely, I doubt that all season tires offer a 50 percent increase in traction over winter tires in dry conditions.

Most all season tires are designed for a quiet, comfortable ride that lasts a long time. Winter tires are designed for maximum winter traction. How can you compare these two products when they are developed to meet different needs?


Personally, its about safety. Sure there are bound to be some nice days this winter. On those dry days it is very unlikely that I will slide through a stop sign and be killed by an oncomming bus, even if I drive fast and have "poor-dry-traction" winter tires. However, on the winter days, or at night and in the evenings and mornings (it goes below freezing at night even on warmest winter days) I don't want to hit the ice and end up in a hospital.

[R_Ethug]

Yes kris that true.. here are my 2 cents on the whole tire dealy.. if I buy a set of summer performance or winter only tires I want them to last 2-3 seasons each.. thats good enough for me.
as for the winters thats why they make 'sporty' winters like the dunlop m2s and the pilot aplins,etc you can still go fast but when the ice hits the compound is soft and will grip ice..

anyways enough talk about tires.. the matrix starts tommorow get ready for that!! hehe

[kuhli]

good points

I agree, compound plays a very major role and your comments are accurate, however applying the rule to all A/S or all winter tires is a bit sloppy. Many A/S have terrible compounds, few winter tires have really good all weather compounds, so I really don't think a rule of thumb can be created, that is why I left it out of the previous discussion.

And in regards to safety, given the above, there are compromises either way whether you use winters or a/s. I personally can testify that most a/s are pretty bad winter tires, and one needs to pick carefully and not just accept what the 'tire guy' treats as gospel.

Additionally, I am trying to keep the costs reasonable in balance with the compromise being made. I simply find a good A/S the best compromise for me. I should also add, I don't drive a zillion miles a year, 10-15k is my average for a year, folks who drive a lot have a different situation.

Also, I just work around it because I can, folks who need to drive in poor conditions do need winters. This addresses the safety issue part of the time.

Anyway, good discussion and good points!

[Holksvagon]

Well all I know is that i can actually drive on snow pack.... accelerate and brake with ease.... the roads were bone dry tonight and was -15 ish i went around some pretty hard corners and the tires felt fine..... I dont hink any of us are good enough drivers to really make up that millisecond of reaction time that A/S will have over Winters....

Now that I have a kid... I want to be as safe as possible and everyone in the car safe as well...

All in all good points given and I would highly recomend these Hancook W300 Icebears to anyone.. the guys at Tiretrends were great too

[CalgaryB5]

:mrlaugh: :mrlaugh:
I just got scared like hell when people start talking about tire compound.

Ok. How is this:
I want a soft to medium compound with working temperature around 43F. Must be able to handle for the full snow and road condition, asymmetric design ensures excellent performance when accelerating and braking, large blocks and high stud holding capacity, hand cut blocks available on W shape for increase lateral grip.

Are you asking too much for the winter tires that can do, or you just asking for perfection? The design on tires that able make a good stop/turn is an extreme different on both summer and winter tires.

So, if I live in the non-snow-belt area do I post a message like how I made my KUMHO 712(summer tire) run on the snow? Indeed, there are dumbasses bother to perform such test. I just felt very sad with those spaced-kids.

The all-season tires just give people a false image. Again for the tire compound thing, I see no tire company that offers same threads with multiple tire compound to choose from on a consumer product, except rally specific tires that for off-road racing. In that case, you have no way to choose from, on tires with different compound. So, for reduce the sleepless nights, just choose the brand you like, anyone of them will still perform better on snowy days than your all-season tires.