400 dollar cheques for albertans.. thoughts

[Khyron]

Re: 400 dollar cheques for albertans.. thoughts

Your logic isn't quite following through here. You're saying that the government cannot solve problems by throwing money at them? The primary reason the eduction system (K-12) sucks, is that they don't have enough teachers. Now ask yourself; why don't they have enough teachers... and the answer quite simply is that they aren't throwing the money at it! If they did, that would solve a large portion of the problem. Now I'm not saying that every problem can be solved with money.... but I think it is fair to say that many things could be at least improved.

Do you honestly think that building 10 schools would actually inflate construction costs in this province? No.
Would building 10 schools inflate labour costs? No.

You have to look at things on a larger scale.

Well, construction cost inflation is exactly the reason "Mr. Construction" Bronconnier cited for not moving ahead with more of the projects when his infrastructure budget was approved. Costs would have doubled if not trippled. Just from Calgary construction projects. Maybe 10 schools alone, but tag that on to a workforce already behind on roads, hospitals and schools, what are you going to do? Hire a **** load more teams and then let them go in a few years?

You talk about larger scale but it's the longer scale you have to watch. The simple fact is the civic engineers for this city agree with me (or more like I agree with them). This is the same reason why all the people that ***** about building overpasses instead of dual turn lane lights don't understand long term maintenance costs, and that you have to stage things. If you get 7 years out of a stupid light that's 7 years of maintenance you've deferred in the life of the bridge you do finally build. Westhills is a gong show, but an overpass would have been a huge waste of money - in the longer term. In 10 years it might be warranted.

Btw I never said money wouldn't improve things - just that it wouldn't solve them and it would most likely be a shitty return on your investment.

Khyron

[Cordialtea]

Re: 400 dollar cheques for albertans.. thoughts

I'm going to use my $400.00 toward new snow tires.

Judy

[Canadian Turbo]

Re: 400 dollar cheques for albertans.. thoughts

Well there are a lot of things being built in this city, there are 3 new schools in the Douglasdale McKenzie Area alone currently under construction so I think things are going well and Khyron does have a point in that if they started an ass load of projects all at once costs would rise, basic supply and demand just look at how much concrete is being used and the price is on the rise!!

I also heard the cheques may not come till after Christmas now, which is too bad but could be even better as most people are strapped at that point in time.

[Gone Hunting]

Re: 400 dollar cheques for albertans.. thoughts

Wow!

Some pretty interesting and insightful thoughts in this thread.

When looking through some of the profiles, I noticed that a lot of the members are too young to have been impacted directly by the NEP in 1982. My personal impact was a Class 1 license so I could drive a pump truck in Lloyminster to make full use of my Engineering degree.

$400 is not going to make or break any of us. Sure those on fixed income will enjoy a week or two of some extra fun time.

There is a part that really scares me though. The timing is terrible. We are just trying to get to the bottom of AdScam and the Eastern Liberal Communists are looking for anything to divert attention. I have personally had phone calls and emails from people I know living out east who are incensed about this claiming it is Canada's not Alberta's riches. Fortunately we had some forefathers who were bright enough to pull the resource into provincial responsibility.

Where I see the danger, is that if this P.O.'s the people in Ontario and Quebec enough, they could elect a Liberal Majority on the basis of punishing Alberta for this. Then here we go with another NEP.

Even though Martin swears there will never be another NEP, how many of you know that in the last Friday night of the budget debate and vote, just before the budget passed, the Liberals added a piece to the bill making CO2 a toxic substance under CEPA. Considering that is is present in all air, maybe we can sue the Liberals now for allowing us to breathe a toxic substance?

The real danger of this is that a tax, oops I mean a penalty for releasing that dreadful toxic poison to the air won't be at the tail pipe because that affects voters in the east. It will be at the wellhead where the poison (oil capabable of making CO2 during combustion in an engine) comes out of the ground. There is the basis of a crippling tax grab and penalty to Alberta in particular.

I quite like Ralph. All he did was stand up a dozen or so years ago and say if you elect me, I will fix this things. Which he did. But his timing can be lousy. Just like in the last federal election when he started talking about heath care reform. The liberal controlled media jumped all over this saying the federal PC's were out to ruin health care too.

Just have the displeasure of spending some time in Toronto and Ottawa and you will see that we are thought of as simple members of a colony still run by the eastern royalty.

Not that I have an opionion on this at all.....

[variable26]

Re: 400 dollar cheques for albertans.. thoughts

Just have the displeasure of spending some time in Toronto and Ottawa and you will see that we are thought of as simple members of a colony still run by the eastern royalty.

Not that I have an opionion on this at all.....

Take the blinders off.. there's a bigger picture. .. and your generalisation on how the easterners want Albertan oil money; the only person who ever brouht that up was Ralph Klein... they did a poll out here... i think it was in the globe and mail ( no not the Sun) and the majority of canadians believe that it's fair that alberta keeps it oil money... another thing you may want readup on... is how we are a country... and thru the ages we have all helped each other in times of need. (most provinces are making there own $$$) In New Zealand a similar country to canada... there is a province there which is blessed with large oil reserves... but NEVER have the people of that province seemed selfish. and lastly... i suggest you read deeper into the history of the oil sands... because it was the federal gov't that invested there first... the albertan gov't did not.

sorry for the rant...

BTW... i have lived in montreal, ottawa, calgary, and currently toronto... i love this country... and all it's people equally

[Cordialtea]

Re: 400 dollar cheques for albertans.. thoughts

Hey the First Oil Well was found in Leduc, Alberta.

Taken from CBC Archives:
One spewing geyser of oil at Leduc, Alberta on Feb. 13, 1947 transformed the province’s economy. Until the oil strike Alberta struggled as a have-not province. Leduc "blowing in" was famous and rare because Albertans had never imagined large oil reserves existed beneath the wheat. But ownership of the resource challenged by the national energy program became a political battle: East versus West, Trudeau versus Lougheed. Today, the Leduc legacy lives on with Alberta paying off its debt in 2000 and countless barrels of crude yet to be extracted.

http://www.ucalgary.ca/applied_histo...ary/leduc.html

Globe and Mail article this is a really good one writen September 5, 2005.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...tory/Business/

Judy

[Gone Hunting]

Re: 400 dollar cheques for albertans.. thoughts

Hi Variable26,
I did not say anywhere that the easterners want Alberta's money.

I did clearly state that the eastern liberal government wants to find a way to penalize Alberta and this is an opportunity to make politics and not sound policy decisions. They need something to go to the polls with after the findings of the Gomery inquiry are out.

Unfortunately my blinders are off and Emperor Martin has no clothes on!

BTW, recently read some data on the start up of the oil sands. I think that it might be different that discussed in T.O.

Move on back to Calgary, we welcome anyone who wants to come, work hard, and enjoy the fruits of THEIR labor, no on else's.

[variable26]

Re: 400 dollar cheques for albertans.. thoughts

i don't want to really get into this... because we most like can not agree... and also i don't know near enough on politics to get any deeper... but i did read this a few months ago... it's an interesting read...

To Albertans

The provincial reaction to the passage of same sex legislation through the House of Commons has drawn attention to the province. Frankly, we're being painted as backward and intolerant. That's not fair. There are those of us to agree with same sex marriage, and those who disagree. There's a difference between being intolerant of homosexuality and saying that marriage should be limited to heterosexuals. Marriage is representative of the family unit for many people, and there is no question that any potential negative repurcussions to the family unit should be seriously considered.

Personally, I don't think the negative repurcussions exist, but I cannot dismiss those who disagree as intolerant. Calling Albertans of a particular opinion intolerant is, ironically, an example of over-generalization and prejudice.

We do, however, have certain chronic problems.

First, we are terribly willing to be lied to. Everyone in Alberta will have heard of the NEP by the time they are 15. They will be told that the NEP ruined Alberta's economy, and that's why people here don't vote for Liberals in great numbers. Even in our centennial celebrations we have television vignettes reporting this legend. Here's the truth: There was a sudden drop of oil prices around the world caused by the collapse of an OPEC arrangement to artificially inflate prices above the market rate. People in Alberta lost their jobs and the economy tanked because of OPEC, not the NEP. Yes, the NEP made things worse. But the Liberals did not kill off the oil industry for their own benefit. It would have been in their benefit for it to grow even faster. We were very quick to accept the lie that it was the Liberals' fault. It was an oil company lie, and a tory lie, and we bought it, because it gave us someone to blame for the very real tragedy we were facing.

And why was the lie told? For selfish reasons. That's the second problem with Albertans. We are a selfish bunch. That's not necessarily bad, or unnatural, but it needs to be accepted as a part of our understanding of ourselves if we are to be able to deal truthfully with the rest of the nation. Selfishness drives market economies, and Alberta has plenty of it. We are the richest province in the nation, and yet we begrudge every dime sent away. Centralists moan about waste, decentralists moan about jurisdiction, and those few seperatists say we should stop paying federal taxes altogether. Meanwhile, we are so wealthy that the country can't actually include us in the equalization calculations, because they wouldn't be able to afford to bring the rest of the country up to average if we're included in the sum.

There is a western alienation out here, that's true. We don't have the political influence that we think befits our contribution to the nation's coffers. But it's an easy problem to solve, if slowly: Just increase the population. Invite people here, and get a population that rivals that of the power centres of the country. We evidently have the industry and resources to do it. The only problem is, we'd have to spread everything out among more of us. That's contrary to our selfishness. So we'd rather keep our high per-capita income and ***** about not having any say federally. Evidently we don't need the say in order to succeed financially, so what else matters?

Politically, what does it mean? Well, unfortunately, it means that the only political parties that are going to get any play in Alberta are those that appeal to our selfishness. Which isn't necessarily a bad news story for Liberals. Someone just needs to convince Albertans that they are not sharing equitably in the wealth of the massive corporations selling off our natural resources. Come to think of it, that's going to be difficult to do. You see, we're very willing to be lied to.

[Cordialtea]

Re: 400 dollar cheques for albertans.. thoughts

Hey Where did you get that from? I quoted my Sources I would like to know yours!

Judy

[Cordialtea]

Re: 400 dollar cheques for albertans.. thoughts

[QUOTE=Gone Hunting]Unfortunately my blinders are off and Emperor Martin has no clothes on![QUOTE]

I was ROFLMAO at the this comment, hehe!

Judy

[Gone Hunting]

Re: 400 dollar cheques for albertans.. thoughts

Judy,
Glad I could add a smile to your day. Not being hip to the acronyms, it took me a few minutes to get it. Then I did the same.

The excerpt from variable26 quoting gauntlet (whatever the source) is merely an opinion. Not much different from what this whole thread is.

If you want an interesting read, Marc Lalonde (who was the energy minister under the One Finger Wonder, his holiness Pierre Trudeau) had to wait for Trudeau's death before he could write his biography. In there he clearly states on the record that the NEP was devised for the sole purpose of punishing the west because it was gaining too much economic strength. The undertone was that with the economic strenght would come political strenght and our maturity was not there to handle it and it would threaten the centralized political might that had to stay in Ottawa.

Now that to me holds a little more credibility that an opinion from someone calling themselves Gaunlet.

The situation with OPEC in 1982 was not the major factor. The eagerness to have an inflationary North American economy resulted in double digit inflation during that time, which resulted in recessionary pressures on the economy. The NEP was the proverbial straw that broke the camels back. The longterm gas contracts to the east kept gas prices low. Gas was never a factor back then, only crude. When there is sufficient capacity in the global economy, supply/demand economics dictate there is a fine balance point in pricing. The NEP tipped that balance point.

The difference today is the decline curves of production show that there is a widening gap between demand and supply for the next 10 years until alternate energy sources prove viable. Therefore crude oil and natural gas do have a value placed on them that falls outside of the simple supply/demand curves taught in basic economics.

Throw in the growth in the Chinese economy (and military) is one of the driving factors. At any given time there are over 200 Chinese Nationals in western Canada trying to buy reserves and production. At the same time, the economic policies of the U.S.A. are resulting in deficit budgeting and a proliferation of "T-Bills" being issued which ironically, the Chinese are buying. Therefore over the next few years, the Chinese will gain a significant control of the US fiscal situation as they hold the trigger on their financial stability.

The US is going away from a manufacturing base to a consumer base because of the labor costs there. We did that a long time ago by shipping our raw materials (oil/grain/lumber/iron one/etc) to another country to be used to manufacture products that we in turn import and buy.

The real danger is a deflationary period where our economic position is rationalized, money is devalued, and our standard of living drops accordingly. If the eastern liberals took that into account, they drive would be to strengthen our basic manufacturing abilities and export fininished products. Unfortunately our tax structure in Canada stops companies from manufacturing here (unless you are Bombardier and are exempt from the law and live on political handouts).

At the end of the day, these are some real issues that affect our economy and I hope differ from the "feelings" expressed by Gaunlet.

BTW, how is the weather in Edmonton? I have to run up there tomorrow.

[Cordialtea]

Re: 400 dollar cheques for albertans.. thoughts

The Weather up here in Edmonton has been sunny and Warm really nice long weekend so far.

Judy

[variable26]

Re: 400 dollar cheques for albertans.. thoughts

weather's partially cloud here with a high of 16

the gauntlet is a blog... any link and most links are all opinion even if you read it in the globe and mail or the calgary sun it's all biased in it's own special way... knowing the whole story is difficult anytime.

anyhow... i just think people would sleep better if they did not think the rest of canada are people who all voted liberal to **** the albertans. if you think any politician is looking out for your own good you are sadly mistaken. PC, NDP, or Liberal they are all involved in the same backroom deals which you never hear about (until the sponsorship scandel) if you ever knew anyone that works in any form of gov't including city halls, you would know that a lot of money goes to mysterious places for mysterious reasons that keep the whole machine running.

peace love and oil...

chuck

[Gone Hunting]

Re: 400 dollar cheques for albertans.. thoughts

Chuck,
You hit the nail on the head about all politicians. Their sole purpose is to get re-elected and part of the way they do it is through patronage spending and appointments.

Liberals however do rely on the voter base in Ontario and Quebec so they have to reward their return to power with legislation that fits the perception of their voter base.

The PC's are in disarray for that exact reason. There is no mechanism by which the party line has to be towed resulting in a fractioned voter base and a feeding frenzy of selected media clips of loose cannons spouting off.

The beautiful this is that we all have free will to determine our own paths during our time on this planet. Me? Run an oifield service company so I have enough money so that I can go hunting, do a little golfing, and buy lots of parts for my cars, truck, and quad!!!

Free enterprize and capitalism allow those who want to succeed do so. Liberal social engineering is a little bit too much like Robin Hood. Except Robin Hood gave ALL the riches to the poor. He didn't give 10% to the poor and the other 90% to Bombardier and Quebec advertising agencies.

looking forward to my trip to Edmonton tomorrow. Pick up some Amsoil and scope mounts. My support of the Oilers and Eskimos is not as well received in Calgary as I might have hoped. But then again, my OPINIONS on this thread aren't as well received either.......

Tommy Banks for Pope!!! His musical talent seems to make him suitable for senator so he must be good enough to be the Pope too!

Later,