Car feels all "rotatey" on slippery roads. Alignment issue?

[Chris]

Re: Car feels all "rotatey" on slippery roads. Alignment issue?

Im also having the same issue on a B8 A4, had an alignment done not to long ago as well that hasn't helped at all... I keep reading the toe could be the issue and also with being lowered the alignment isn't perfect.. But I never had an issue last year I hope you don't mind me hoping on your thread for advice

I’ve been doing a lot of reading online about similar issues, too and the toe angle seems to be a common issue. Oh, and I don’t mind you hopping on this thread at all!

Car is saying it misses Derek....good luck, strange symptoms!

No joke, that crossed my mind! :P

Gyroscopic precession? Roads are pretty greasy out there and I imagine your 265s don't help but could it be just the normal rear swing under acceleration with slipping? RWD and Quattro tend to swing the ass to the right, then back to the left, then in a figure eight and finally in a pattern called a donut. the last three may just be me. Could be as simple as a slightly worn out bushing that is not worn enough to show up under visual inspection during an alignment. Long shot but if the tread is directional make sure that they are pointing the right way.

The swinging effect was most pronounced when I was either at a steady throttle or lifting slightly (but not so much as to be a weight shift thing). When I actually gave it a bit of throttle it was a little less pronounced.

I’m going to get another shop to check the alignment today and get them to dial in the toe as close to zero to see what effect that has; at the same time I’ll get them to check the bushings.

Oh, and I also checked to make sure the tires were all put on the right way and pointed the right way – I’m happy to report that they are indeed!

Hey Chris,

I left you a message as well but thought I would reply. I know it sounds ridiculous and I'm sure you have checked but could the tire pressures be off? I removed the TPMS function in the car so the car wont tell you if the pressures are off. Other than that, not too sure man. I was never a huge fan of the way the car handled in real slippery conditions however I just attributed that to the wide winters that were on the car. Hopefully you get it resolved soon!

Sorry I missed your call last night - wifey had me on dinner duty. I actually thought to check the tire pressures when I filled up prior to our departure and all were normal. But I’m going to check them again to see if any are low today.

directional tires? maybe check to see if you've got one mounted incorrectly?

side note, i also feel that my b7 handles worse than my b6 did in the snow.

Yup - all tires are pointing the right way!

Depending on how many miles are on the tires, your tread wear is as good an indicator as you're likely to find for your alignment. You mentioned that wear is even, so that's not likely the issue.

You said your section width is wider than stock, 40 mm total. That's not insignificant. People usually run narrower rubber in winter (~10mm/tire) to better cut through crud.

Tramlining could be your issue.

I’m beginning to think that may be the case. Although it appears to be a combination of things. So far the mathematical formula I have begun to devise is something along the lines of this:

RS4 + ((toe x steamrollers) + lowered + icy) = dirty underwear

Or something to that effect.

Im going with to wide of tires. Your more than welcome to try my rs4 with 235 wide tires, if you would like.

That’s a very kind offer - and I may take you up on that so I can get a better sense of the difference. I’ll let you know!

Sounds like tramlining to me. Stiffer sidewalls caused by a wider tire and/or tire pressures higher than normal will cause this.

RS4 + ((toe x steamrollers) + lowered + icy) = dirty underwear

Sidenote: the destination of our trip before we turned back was Kimberley. I was actually wondering if we were going to see your RS4 parked in the cul-de-sac!

If bump steer adjustment is out, it can cause odd steering tracking issues. A shop like fountain tire will report an acceptable alignment and not know how to check it. Dealer or Tunedub will do a better job. From experience, I had my alignment done 3 times at fountain tire. It never felt right. I ended up running out to Vancouver with the odd pull still there, then went to Tunedub for another alightment. He said that bump steer was whacky. I went back to fountain, and they refunded me and said they really don't know how to deal with audi 4 link front ends. Unfortunately, after I had it fixed, my tires were left with some lateral runout that was unfixable so even after the fix, the alignment didnt feel right and I ended up needing new tires.

**also, this was the first time I realized that tires on their own could cause significant pull to one side. Would be a really odd feeling if a rear tire was pulling.

Never thought about bump-steer (but mostly because I didn’t even know what it was until I googled it just now). I’ll add that to the list of things to check!

PS - Fountain Tire is horrible. At least the one on 37th Street and Bow Trail. But I’ll save that story for another day.

Hey chris,

I have this exact same issue on my RS4 as well. you have described it perfectly. i thought it was my tires as well as mine are 255/40/19s which are 0.66 inches bigger then the stock diameter.

it is definitely kind of scary at higher speeds. I for some reason thought it was Quattro making minor adjustments to overcome the icy patches? no clue :S

edit: also, my car needs new front upper control arms and most likely an alignment as well, so i thought maybe this was the cause. I have kind of left it off for now as its just sitting in the garage with a dead battery for now :S. do update us if you find any other info on this!

I’m not sure if the additional sidewall height you have on your tires would have any effect, but it would seem that even a 255 section width is verging on the “too wide, I’mma glide” territory.

Oh, and get a new battery! Don’t let the poor girl just sit there unused.

Hi Chris,

I would have to say it is likely the tires as well. I ran 255/35/19 *OEM* Blizzaks and I found it to be a butt puckering experience on the highway to Banff a few winters ago, I made the decision to drop down to 225/45/18 for cost savings and gripping efficiency. After that, the squirelly ride was reduced significantly. I know it may not appetizing to buy a new set of winters at the moment, but it is probably the best suggestion I have for the RS4. Drive safe and have fun out there.

Thanks, man! I’m going to see what remedies I can sort out with the current set up for this season, but may look at switching to 18’s next year if it still feels squirrely.

Hi, Sorry to hear of this issue, My experience and thoughts is that sometimes when a car is lowered it can tend to have this unstable feeling in winter on slippery sections of the road. I don't know why but I can only speculate as it has happened to one of my cars that was lowered but not others, Why? I would think it may have something to do with being lowered, when its lowered you move the supension beyond what the factory has designed, it is now riding at what used to be the lowest point of the travel and now you drive the car it is stiffer and possible less forgiveing in say bump steer and it could push it to one side ever so slightly.
I see your alignment specs but don't see a Thrust Angle? If indicates the front axle reference to the rear axle.
Maybe rotate your tires, if it gets better you know its tires if not you least tried something.
You may have to if you can put stock suspension back on,
Good luck and drive safely

Whoops! Forgot to include thrust angle - it is 0.07°

I had this same problem. Get the shop to set the rear toe closer to zero. Audis spec for rear toe is too aggressive and on slippery roads the tires like to catch traction and try to sway the car.

Maybe check to make sure a brake caliper isnt sticking too?

Didn’t think of the brake calliper sticking. I’ll get that checked too!

^this^

No rear toe or very very slight toe in are pretty much the only acceptable settings on a street car. Not sure of the rear toe set up on the car but on the B5 the the adjuster bolt would brake inside and you would have random toe settings as the car would unload and then reload so evry bump would do what you say is happening.

Stupid question - but “toe in” would mean a negative value, correct? i.e.: -0.05° whereas toe out would be a positive value?

Oh, and THANKS FOR ALL THE HELP AND SUGGESTIONS GUYS!



I’ll report back after I’ve got the re-alignment done and checked out a few other things.

[stefan]

Re: Car feels all "rotatey" on slippery roads. Alignment issue?

Rear toe makes a lot of sense. Rotatey feeling would be a rear end issue.

[shtock99]

Re: Car feels all "rotatey" on slippery roads. Alignment issue?

Can someone help me out, Im not really understanding how the front left camber can be so different from the right? The car is lowered but I measured and both sides are the same height.

[Deuce]

Re: Car feels all "rotatey" on slippery roads. Alignment issue?

RS4 + ((toe x steamrollers) + lowered + icy) = dirty underwear

Sidenote: the destination of our trip before we turned back was Kimberley. I was actually wondering if we were going to see your RS4 parked in the cul-de-sac!

Ah crap man... you totally would have! We've been out here since the 27th. We'll have to coordinate next time on the drive out.

PS. Any reports of a Red RS4 doing donuts at the bottom of the cul-de-sac are completely baseless and untrue!

[Chris]

Re: Car feels all "rotatey" on slippery roads. Alignment issue?

Can someone help me out, Im not really understanding how the front left camber can be so different from the right? The car is lowered but I measured and both sides are the same height.

This is probably a stupid thought, but would the drivers' side of the car be aligned in a way so as to offset the weight of the driver? Otherwise I have no idea!

Ah crap man... you totally would have! We've been out here since the 27th. We'll have to coordinate next time on the drive out.

PS. Any reports of a Red RS4 doing donuts at the bottom of the cul-de-sac are completely baseless and untrue!

Nuts! Yeah, we should definitely coordinate next time! Would be fun having an RS4-convoy on the way out and snapping some pics along the way. Hope you guys are having fun out there! (although from the sounds of it you are!)

[danno]

Re: Car feels all "rotatey" on slippery roads. Alignment issue?

Let me know im around most of the weekend. I got control arms that need to be replaced soon and my car goes perfectly straight, but may be possible on your car too.

[skhan91]

Re: Car feels all "rotatey" on slippery roads. Alignment issue?

Let me know im around most of the weekend. I got control arms that need to be replaced soon and my car goes perfectly straight, but may be possible on your car too.

are you doing the CAs yourself Danno? I am needing upper control arms done as well, looks like a doable job in the garage.

[danno]

Re: Car feels all "rotatey" on slippery roads. Alignment issue?

Not sure yet, im probably buying another car to daily and keepi g the rs4 for fun driving in that case i will do them myself. If i keep the rs4 for daily duty ill get someone to do them
I have a bit of stuff to clean up on the rs4 that ive been holding off on and i cant mentally hold off any longer.

[skhan91]

Re: Car feels all "rotatey" on slippery roads. Alignment issue?

Not sure yet, im probably buying another car to daily and keepi g the rs4 for fun driving in that case i will do them myself. If i keep the rs4 for daily duty ill get someone to do them
I have a bit of stuff to clean up on the rs4 that ive been holding off on and i cant mentally hold off any longer.

i hear ya. i have been puting off doing my control arms for a while now, they are just sitting in the garage staring at me everytime i walk by

[Chris]

Re: Car feels all "rotatey" on slippery roads. Alignment issue?

Sorry I didn't post an update earlier, but got caught up in holiday stuff last week.

I took the car in to get the alignment re-done and centre out the toe in both the front and rear, and so far it seems much better. Although now that the weather warmed up and the streets aren't as slippery it's a bit difficult to tell until the next time the roads get icy. In the meantime, the amount that the front and rear toe were out in my car seems to have been the primary culprit (which was exacerbated by wide winter tires) but I'll keep this thread updated if the issue returns and I need to continue the trouble-shooting.

Thanks to you all for your input!!

[jacktown]

Re: Car feels all "rotatey" on slippery roads. Alignment issue?

Hey Chris,
Just catching up on this thread. I did some highway driving in the S4 Avant over the holidays and I felt as though the back end of my car was see-sawing left to right as I was going over the slushy stuff on the road. It was only noticeable at speeds over 90 when I would back off the throttle. It was totally fine when the road conditions improved but as soon as it got slippery again, the car just didn't feel confident.
I'm new to the car and figured it was related to my winter tires. Theres a couple of seasons on them already and I figured the compound might just be getting a little old. However, having read your thread I'm convinced I have the same problem that you describe. I won't have a chance to get an alignment done in the next couple of weeks but I'll be watching this thread to see if you're able to describe the results of your new 'toe' settings on some slushy roads.

[mrx]

Re: Car feels all "rotatey" on slippery roads. Alignment issue?

I'm gonna throw my fwd car into the mix of this thread. I've been experiencing the same things described throughout this thread. On dry roads and on my decent winters (factory sized 225/45/17's) the car feels perfectly fine. But once the weather turn and we get either loose snow or icy road conditions, the back end of my car is definitely creating a colon twitching driving experience. I know my alignment is out of wack right now since I have my camber in the rear maxed out and my toe isn't ideal from my summer setup. Once I get my alignment done i'll update here too to add another reference point on alignment vs. winter driving feel.

[CGY_GTI]

Re: Car feels all "rotatey" on slippery roads. Alignment issue?

I'm gonna throw my fwd car into the mix of this thread. I've been experiencing the same things described throughout this thread. On dry roads and on my decent winters (factory sized 225/45/17's) the car feels perfectly fine. But once the weather turn and we get either loose snow or icy road conditions, the back end of my car is definitely creating a colon twitching driving experience. I know my alignment is out of wack right now since I have my camber in the rear maxed out and my toe isn't ideal from my summer setup. Once I get my alignment done i'll update here too to add another reference point on alignment vs. winter driving feel.

I'll chime in here since my MK6 was bagged as well. I noticed this to some extent with mine (and I have the same size tires), but considering yours is a wagon, the extra overall length of the car would likely make this much more noticeable than it was on my GTI. Since our cars are FWD, obviously there isn't any power to the rear that would force the back end to kick out, so I'm pretty sure this is just due to the camber in the rear reducing the overall contact area of the tires on the road, and therefore reducing the grip on the rear end. The high offset of my winter wheels meant that I could drive much lower than I could in the summer, so that's when I noticed it the most. If I had my car out on snow covered roads with the summer wheels on, I never noticed this since I had to drive around higher (and therefore with a bit less camber) because of the offset and size of the wheels.

[Chris]

Re: Car feels all "rotatey" on slippery roads. Alignment issue?

Quick Update: Seems the alignment worked! Car was so much more stable on the slippery roads today. Granted, this was just on the commute to the office, but I'm going to do some testing out on the highway this weekend to confirm.

[danno]

Re: Car feels all "rotatey" on slippery roads. Alignment issue?

I didnt want to start a new thread, but got a question for you guys.

I believe my control arms are due for replacement. But i have this new issue any braking over 60km/hr i get a steering wheel shake and then it goes away under 60. Things to look at? I checked all the wheels bolts and pressures. Not balance though. Is it possible for the control arm bushings to do this?