Tasers...

[Khyron]

Re: Tasers...

Your statement above truly shows how ignorant some individuals truly are.

And yours show why criminals often enjoy more rights than victims.

Your entire description of his mother, his sad plight, his wait for 10 hours means NOTHING in this situation with regards to the police. The airport and border authority shoulder the blame on that one. You found out about it after the fact and are now incapable of viewing it impartially. It's a video of a crazy guy in an airport throwing crap and acting aggressive. Even assuming they didn't shoot him, and did bring up a Polish translator, do you think they'd have just let him go after trashing the place? He was engaged in criminal behavior, sick or not! 10 hours, no english, no water - how the hell does that relate to the cops?

If a guy attacks another and starts beating the crap out of another, and the cops drag him off - only you find out later that the guy he was beating up was a child molester - it doesn't change the act itself! You might have compassion now knowing the circumstances but the behaviour remains the same. It's assault.

If I was in a foreign country and didn't speak the language I'd either have several key phrases on flash cards, or at least the presence of mind not to start hurling furnature at glass windows in order to get attention. If I did do this, I would expect to be taken down.

People like you need to be caught in a dark alley with very bad people in order to appreciate what the police actually do deal with. Or better yet, go apply and show us how it's really done. At least go on a ride along - you might get some perspective.

I'm fine with the Taser policies and procedures being reviewed and possibly changed - but calling for the ban of the "lethal" weapon doesn't solve anything and I'm really sick of hearing it. It's an oversimplification of the problem.

EDIT: And you're still jumping the gun by declaring YOU know the cause of death, yet the B.C.'s Coroner Service is still unable to confirm a cause of death.

[nordex]

Re: Tasers...

And yours show why criminals often enjoy more rights than victims.

Your entire description of his mother, his sad plight, his wait for 10 hours means NOTHING in this situation with regards to the police. The airport and border authority shoulder the blame on that one. You found out about it after the fact and are now incapable of viewing it impartially. It's a video of a crazy guy in an airport throwing crap and acting aggressive. Even assuming they didn't shoot him, and did bring up a Polish translator, do you think they'd have just let him go after trashing the place? He was engaged in criminal behavior, sick or not! 10 hours, no english, no water - how the hell does that relate to the cops?

If a guy attacks another and starts beating the crap out of another, and the cops drag him off - only you find out later that the guy he was beating up was a child molester - it doesn't change the act itself! You might have compassion now knowing the circumstances but the behaviour remains the same. It's assault.

If I was in a foreign country and didn't speak the language I'd either have several key phrases on flash cards, or at least the presence of mind not to start hurling furnature at glass windows in order to get attention. If I did do this, I would expect to be taken down.

People like you need to be caught in a dark alley with very bad people in order to appreciate what the police actually do deal with. Or better yet, go apply and show us how it's really done. At least go on a ride along - you might get some perspective.

I'm fine with the Taser policies and procedures being reviewed and possibly changed - but calling for the ban of the "lethal" weapon doesn't solve anything and I'm really sick of hearing it. It's an oversimplification of the problem.

EDIT: And you're still jumping the gun by declaring YOU know the cause of death, yet the B.C.'s Coroner Service is still unable to confirm a cause of death.

Ya thats it. So dangerous that if you watch the whole video a women approaches him before the police respond, while he is holding a table and she doesn't appear to be to threatened. Yet 4 officers were threatened by this armed man with a stapler. Pathetic. The officers went way to far. This not in a back alley with a single officer and if they felt so threatened maybe they should have called for backup. Was he still holding that stapler when they were all on him smacking him with the baton?

This is simply not justifiable. This well be shown in the trial when these officers well have to explain the reasoning and I have a feeling an example is about to made out of them.

Am I really jumping to conclusions? I mean he's alive, police show up, he's dead.

[nordex]

Re: Tasers...

Coming from a law-enforcement background, I can see the benefits to having tasers. However, after reviewing the footage from the Vancouver Airport incident, I can honestly say that those officers were not justified in using the taser.
In the law enforcement field, we use a "use of continuum". This continuum is a guide to help determine which form of action we use under certain cicumstances. In this particular circumstance, the officers were not justified in using the taser. The individual was un-armed at the time the RCMP arrived and appeared to be co-operative. If you watch the video, he raises his hands to chest level as a sign of co-operation (non-verbal indicator) and he clearly listened to the officers demand to stand where he pointed. To make matters worse, there were four officers vs one individual. Following the verbal commands, the officers were to move on to the next step on the continuum, which is soft empty hand control. If the individual resists, you can take the next step and use hard empty hand techniques. If this step also fails, you are justified in using a baton, pepper spray or taser. After reviewing the footage, it is clear that the officers failed to use soft empty hand control and were quick to use the taser.
After watching the footage numerous times with fellow co-workers, we all felt that the officers were completely out of line.

Maybe you want to re-read this I think DubyT has some of that insider perspective you speak of.

[Stonewall]

Re: Tasers...

I have really waited a while before I though I would join in on this thread. Geoff I agree with most of your points and also agree with points from the other side but it simply comes down to one thing, the police where not patient enough. So what if the guy was thrashing the place, those are just items. Did he actually hit anyone? Don't ask me I wasn't there. From everything I have read it looks like the officers just showed up and went straight to forceful negotiation. Taser or not they still went about everything the wrong way. It maybe just that our society has bread them to be afraid of everything. Then again did they look at their surroundings, the man could not have been armed with a gun as there is no way we would have been able to get it into a secure area. So the man had no way of causing lethal harm at a distance, so that causes the question of why they acted the way they did. There could have been a more diplomatic way of dealing with the situation, instead they choice the typical hollywood Rambo style and used bruit force rather then their brains.

[nordex]

Re: Tasers...

I have really waited a while before I though I would join in on this thread. Geoff I agree with most of your points and also agree with points from the other side but it simply comes down to one thing, the police where not patient enough. So what if the guy was thrashing the place, those are just items. Did he actually hit anyone? Don't ask me I wasn't there. From everything I have read it looks like the officers just showed up and went straight to forceful negotiation. Taser or not they still went about everything the wrong way. It maybe just that our society has bread them to be afraid of everything. Then again did they look at their surroundings, the man could not have been armed with a gun as there is no way we would have been able to get it into a secure area. So the man had no way of causing lethal harm at a distance, so that causes the question of why they acted the way they did. There could have been a more diplomatic way of dealing with the situation, instead they choice the typical hollywood Rambo style and used bruit force rather then their brains.

That's right. My reason for posting the entire story was to highlight the fact that not one other person helped this guy. The police could have gone in there in a calm matter and jestured they want to help and to try an understand whats going on but no they went marching in and got to it. I would like to know that if for some reason something went wrong with me mentally the police wouldn't treat me the way they did him. Especially if I am in an airport.

[Khyron]

Re: Tasers...

Cardiac arrest caused by electrical current is immediate. The video of the incident at the Vancouver airport indicates that the subject was continuing to fight well after the TASER application. This continuing struggle could not be possible if the subject died as a result of the TASER device electrical current causing cardiac arrest. His continuing struggle is proof that the TASER device was not the cause of his death. Further, the video clearly shows symptoms of excited delirium, a potentially fatal condition marked by symptoms of exhaustion and mania such as heavy breathing, profuse sweating, confusion, disorientation and violence toward inanimate objects.

We are taken aback by the number of media outlets that have irresponsibly published conclusive headlines blaming the TASER device and/or the law enforcement officers involved as the cause of death before completion of the investigation. These sensationalistic media reports completely ignore the earmark symptoms of excited delirium shown in the video. TASER International is transmitting over 60 legal demand letters requiring correction of these false and misleading headlines and will take other actions as appropriate. These unsubstantiated, false headlines mislead the public and could adversely influence public policy in ways which could place the lives of both law enforcement and the public at greater risk.

But yah sure, they should have chatted with him first.

[Khyron]

Re: Tasers...

Ya thats it. So dangerous that if you watch the whole video a women approaches him before the police respond, while he is holding a table and she doesn't appear to be to threatened. Yet 4 officers were threatened by this armed man with a stapler. Pathetic. The officers went way to far. This not in a back alley with a single officer and if they felt so threatened maybe they should have called for backup.

She looks like she's approaching a tiger, and he doesn't look very calm to me. Reports say he lashed out at bystanders trying to help.

Give me a metal stapler, and you and 3 friends come try and take me down with no weapons at all. Concussions, crushed skull, death all become a distinct possibility. Not a certainty of course, but the risk goes way up.

People act like the guy was actually going to staple people - if that was the case, then yah that's funny. But a 2 pound metal weight in a fist is not a joke even if the object itself is. A roll of quarters or a set of house keys can be lethal when held properly.

Was he still holding that stapler when they were all on him smacking him with the baton?

Now you make crap up. Even the most anti-cop news reports have acknowledged that no strikes were inflicted. They did not club him or punch him (because they used the taser instead). He was resisting, and as you keep ignoring, when your out of your mind you can have amazing strength, even against 4 guys who are trying to restrain you without hurting you.

If the cops do get in trouble it will be for not performing CPR. I don't understand that part.

[nordex]

Re: Tasers...

Now you make crap up. Even the most anti-cop news reports have acknowledged that no strikes were inflicted. They did not club him or punch him (because they used the taser instead). He was resisting, and as you keep ignoring, when your out of your mind you can have amazing strength, even against 4 guys who are trying to restrain you without hurting you.

If the cops do get in trouble it will be for not performing CPR. I don't understand that part.

Maybe you need to watch the video again.

Here i'll even give you the link and time ~7:00 watch the right cop jab that sucker into him. I wouldn't be surprised if he was beat to death.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=qHKk5qQRzL4

So ya what was that big pole he whipped out?

[nordex]

Re: Tasers...

She looks like she's approaching a tiger, and he doesn't look very calm to me. Reports say he lashed out at bystanders trying to help.

Give me a metal stapler, and you and 3 friends come try and take me down with no weapons at all. Concussions, crushed skull, death all become a distinct possibility. Not a certainty of course, but the risk goes way up.

People act like the guy was actually going to staple people - if that was the case, then yah that's funny. But a 2 pound metal weight in a fist is not a joke even if the object itself is. A roll of quarters or a set of house keys can be lethal when held properly.=

AHAHA that's great so your telling me 4 officers are not able to subdue someone holding a stapler. That's great.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTuQBlsrKqY

@3:39 his hands appear empty and the police are within striking distance pretty crazy considering they felt so threatened so why didn't they grab him then and place him under arrest???? I would love to have seen how this would have played out if no one had a taser. You think they would have shot him.

You have had people who are involved in law enforcement tell you this was handled completely wrong and they are the experienced ones.

Ps, i'm pretty sure me and pablo could handle you with a stapler too. do we get all the other tools these police officers had?

[Khyron]

Re: Tasers...

Maybe you need to watch the video again.

Here i'll even give you the link and time ~7:00 watch the right cop jab that sucker into him. I wouldn't be surprised if he was beat to death.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=qHKk5qQRzL4

So ya what was that big pole he whipped out?

So to you getting jabbed with a bat is the same as getting hit with a swing? Watch the Rodney King beating and compare.

That said I agree it doesn't look right, but I also can't see what he's jabbing. If he was actually hitting him in the shoulder or something he should have been supporting the base, almost like a pole vault. The way he's holding it he's got virtually no aim - you can see it swaying around, he's almost hitting random spots.

But I stand by what I've said since the beginning - I don't believe the taser caused his death and I don't believe the cops "murdered" him. If that idiot with the stick really was trying to jab his shoulder and hit him at the base of the neck or head then yah they're responsible but it's not murder. Just look at him resisting - he moved the whole dogpile. When they were all close together, the taser was down it's when atfer 3:39 he suddenly turns away that it comes up.

If the world was as simple as you try to make it, and it was electrocution or death by blunt force trauma (stick) you'd think the autopsy would be out by now?

You can re-watch it over and over, but those guys were making decisions in split seconds, not armchair quarterbacking a month later.

[Khyron]

Re: Tasers...

You have had people who are involved in law enforcement tell you this was handled completely wrong and they are the experienced ones.

I've talked to more real cops that have said there are lots of minor things that of course in hindsight could have been dealt with better but it's not like they were completely off base in their tactic.

When I heard about the video I was in Van with no computer. People were raging - it's on every paper, interview. Without seeing the video I honestly thought that the dude was sitting in a chair passively and the cops walked up to him and just shot him - and he keeled over and died. Then I see the real video with the chairs being tossed, the crazed look on his face, the resistance to the cops both before getting tasered and after - and then the time lag between getting tasered and actually dying... I mean it's absurd how this is being reacted to. Yes of course the cops must have at least a piece of the blame because the guy did die. But calls for banning tasers, it's muder, hang the cops, etc, it makes me sicker than the video.

Ps, i'm pretty sure me and pablo could handle you with a stapler too. do we get all the other tools these police officers had?

Sure, but that's not the point - the question becomes would you feel safer taking me with the stapler, or without. Do you understand that a chain, or a metal spike or a box cutter might not seem dangerous like a sword or a knife but it IS. An irony of knife fighting is that the smaller the blade, the more dangerous it is to deal with. I'd rather deal with a guy with a baseball bat than a screwdriver.

And even ignoring all that - the fact that your opponent is holding ANYTHING like a weapon shows intent to fight. Ok maybe not a rubber chicken, but you get the idea.

[calgarydub]

Re: Tasers...

And yours show why criminals often enjoy more rights than victims.

Your entire description of his mother, his sad plight, his wait for 10 hours means NOTHING in this situation with regards to the police. The airport and border authority shoulder the blame on that one. You found out about it after the fact and are now incapable of viewing it impartially. It's a video of a crazy guy in an airport throwing crap and acting aggressive. Even assuming they didn't shoot him, and did bring up a Polish translator, do you think they'd have just let him go after trashing the place? He was engaged in criminal behavior, sick or not! 10 hours, no english, no water - how the hell does that relate to the cops?

If a guy attacks another and starts beating the crap out of another, and the cops drag him off - only you find out later that the guy he was beating up was a child molester - it doesn't change the act itself! You might have compassion now knowing the circumstances but the behaviour remains the same. It's assault.

If I was in a foreign country and didn't speak the language I'd either have several key phrases on flash cards, or at least the presence of mind not to start hurling furnature at glass windows in order to get attention. If I did do this, I would expect to be taken down.

People like you need to be caught in a dark alley with very bad people in order to appreciate what the police actually do deal with. Or better yet, go apply and show us how it's really done. At least go on a ride along - you might get some perspective.

I'm fine with the Taser policies and procedures being reviewed and possibly changed - but calling for the ban of the "lethal" weapon doesn't solve anything and I'm really sick of hearing it. It's an oversimplification of the problem.

EDIT: And you're still jumping the gun by declaring YOU know the cause of death, yet the B.C.'s Coroner Service is still unable to confirm a cause of death.

You keep calling him crazy;Do you have proof he was mentally unstable? He's frustrated and lost is temper. I don't know if you have any idea what europe is like, but I have been there several times (at least 5) for extended periods of time, and they deal with things different over there. The people are different, they act out in ways I guess you would define as "crazy". He shouldn't have started throwing stuff around but I think we all know what it feels like when we completely snap. Don't tell me you're Mr.Mellow, everyone has lost it one time or another. I think its too much of a coincidence for so many to die within a short period of time, all weirdly involving the taser. You brought up points of bathtubs and beds killing people, I'm sorry but I don't remember when cops where using those to safely take down a person? The cops tased him twice, as I can recall hearing in the video "Hit him again, hit him again". The polices' lack of understanding and how they *executed* the situation is what makes them at fault for the death of this man, they did not follow proper procedure.

HOWEVER, if they had given him an order, and he did not follow this order, they are eligable to use force. Too bad they did not follow the correct way of elevating through the proper steps. Using a taser should not be an easy button, it should be the LAST resort before using a firearm. I bet you if you could talk to those cops right now, they would change everything they did. Their excuse for not using pepper spray was that there were "too many people around" yet I saw no one in that secluded glassed in security room. I think we should all agree to wait until the autopsy report is released, and the officers have had a chance to speak out about what they believed was the right way of handling things. Tasers are an effective tool, who knows if he died from electrical shock, or physical force. There is no question that they need to be reviewed and revised. I don't know this man personally, but I will say that if I were him, I would have been very scared, angry, tired and reluctant, then to be confronted by Police officers who I would think are coming to help me, and then aim what I believe is a gun. Let's look at the situation as a whole, not what "the police should be concerned with" because they should take everything into account. Ever watch a swat show on tv? They don't just say "okay so theres a guy inside were going to go get him" they take every detail into account so that they get it right. How should dealing with a man who speaks no english, is sweating, looks frustated and has acted out be any different? Well I feel like im going on and on and on. So as a final thought, I think that we could say that Tasers need to be:
1.Reviewed
2.Revised
3.Last resort before using firearm
4.Not abused
5.Proof that tasers don't end human lives.

After those 5 steps have been taken, I will be all for taser use, even if the UN calls it "torture". Let's get it done.

[nordex]

Re: Tasers...

The way the officers handled it was pathetic. They could have easily pepper sprayed him and subdued him. Chances are he would have dropped the stapler to rub his eyes. They got caught up in a situation and acted in a shameful manner.

Would you be condoning this had they instead shot him, the taser is the second last resort next to the gun. If no one had a taser would they had shot him. I doubt it.

[Khyron]

Re: Tasers...

This is one of my problems with your arguments - a taser and pepper spray are in the same class. If you told a cop that he had to be tasered or pepper sprayed, most would probably take the taser. A taser is 50K volts. A stun guns sold in the US go up to 750,000 volts. And they're not lethal (except the odd case, but if you pepper sprayed someone who was deathly allergic to pepper you could have the same objection).

Pepper spray is better for multiple people, but it lasts a lot longer and it also runs a risk of hitting other officers. It's also easier to miss completely. Plus there's even the oddballs that it doesn't affect at all. One aquaintance officer said he'd had it a few times and it barely bothered him. But he also had a phobia of electricity and wouldn't get certified on the taser so go figure.

Also the cloud doesn't just vanish indoors - using it in a room about to be flooded with 300 people would have been dumb.

Watch Jackass where Knoxville gets shot in the abs with the beanbag gun and imagine what would have happened if he'd been hit in the throat. Rubber bullets, the beanbag shotgun - they all have a slight risk of injury or death. EVERYTHING has slight risk of injury or death. You want 100% absolute guarantees of safety, there are none. You can help your odds by not throwing chairs in an airport, not suddenly turning away from cops trying to talk to you, and not resisting them when they try and put the cuffs on.

[Tuna]

Re: Tasers...

LOOOUUUUUDDD NOOOIIIISSSEEEESSSS

This thread is going to go on until infinity because neither one of you can stand not having the last word.

Someone shoot it already.

How do you guys feel about peanut butter and Jam sandwiches?? Some feel they are over rated, I on the other hand do not.