Methanol Injection Group Buy

[Ur0Drivr]

Re: Methanol Injection Group Buy

I have some comments to make on benefits and potential performance gains that I will male when I getbin front of the computer and am able to collect my thoughts and post backing evidence for my claims

Thanks Ryan!

[zoik]

Re: Methanol Injection Group Buy

I have some comments to make on benefits and potential performance gains that I will male when I getbin front of the computer and am able to collect my thoughts and post backing evidence for my claims

i can vouch for this. about a year ago when the before the franken turbo's went into the mantis imola, it was a stage 2+ on apr. mine is a stage 1 apr, and one week after a ed meet, on bow bottom trail, on a rolling start, i can keep up until the higher revs, but it would inch away until i had to shift. that weekend ryan installed his meth kit. following week was the audi club meet. same scenario on bow bottom, rolling start, ryan would always give me the head start. this time around, i watched the whole front end of the car lift up and take off on me like a stage 3 would. and i know there was no extra tune going in on it either. when i finally caught up, ryan rolled his window down and said, you like the meth kit? so definately a gain!

[PRY4SNO]

Re: Methanol Injection Group Buy

How do these kits compare to Aquamist?

Are these the same kits VAST sells?

[Mantis]

Re: Methanol Injection Group Buy

DO was the kit that VAST was using. Aquamist is the absolute best kit out there, but you pay a high premium for it. These kits will provide safe w/m injection at a fraction of the price, but you do give up some of the monitoring and failsafe capabilities.

For the record VAST has been closed for 6 months

[Mantis]

Re: Methanol Injection Group Buy

i can vouch for this. about a year ago when the before the franken turbo's went into the mantis imola, it was a stage 2+ on apr. mine is a stage 1 apr, and one week after a ed meet, on bow bottom trail, on a rolling start, i can keep up until the higher revs, but it would inch away until i had to shift. that weekend ryan installed his meth kit. following week was the audi club meet. same scenario on bow bottom, rolling start, ryan would always give me the head start. this time around, i watched the whole front end of the car lift up and take off on me like a stage 3 would. and i know there was no extra tune going in on it either. when i finally caught up, ryan rolled his window down and said, you like the meth kit? so definately a gain!

Thanks Lenny, that was indeed an unmodified APR 93 tune, the gains were huge.

The reason for such large gains without additional tuning is simple. Most OTS tunes trim fuel in the low and mid range to increase economy, while lean is mean can be true, the addition of the extra high octane fuel (methanol) in the mid section adds tons of torque. Most OTS tunes also request overly aggressive timing, the reason is that all modern ECU's have the ability to adjust (pull) timing in accordance with perceived knock. The cooler intake charge as well as the higher relative octane while not adding anything to the OTS tune allow for the tune to eliminate timing pull due to high timing correction factors( 5deg or so). That may not seem like a big deal but believe me, not pulling 5deg is huge.

A custom tune taking full advantage of w/m injection would be set to include a measured volume of w/m as part of the final AFR, this is where failsafes become very important, if for some reason your w/m system fails you could run dangerously lean in a high boost, high timing situation. Not many tuners are willing to send out a balls to the wall w/m tune as it can get dicey to say the least.

Running w/m on a NA car has several benefits outside of the custom tune, as it increases octane and reduces intake air temps the timing increases to max allowable

Here is some light reading about w/m

Clicky Benefits of w/m

http://www.challengertalk.com/forums/f53/everything-you-need-know-about-water-methanol-injection-5271/

[R-Audi]

Re: Methanol Injection Group Buy

On my last car I added the VAST meth kit, (APR Stage 3, regular 93 program) and while I did notice some difference in the summer, I cant say it was all that large. By some difference, the car just felt smoother and more consistent on the hotter days. How I understood it was the majority of the gains for me would have been temperature related, as it would be comparable to throwing in race gas on a 93 program. You may see some increase, but not a ton.

Maybe Im past that point where I care to squeeze every last hp out of my car, I'd much rather it run smoothly every day. (To be fair the issues I had with the kit were install related.. stupidly I followed DO's instructions and used the splitters they provided instead of soldering. They were good at replacing the fried controller though... As I understand it the pump also had to be replaced after 3-4 years as well)

Really sucks that Vast closed up shop, meth would have been easier to add with a free software update.

[stuvy]

Re: Methanol Injection Group Buy

On my last car I added the VAST meth kit, (APR Stage 3, regular 93 program) and while I did notice some difference in the summer, I cant say it was all that large. By some difference, the car just felt smoother and more consistent on the hotter days. How I understood it was the majority of the gains for me would have been temperature related, as it would be comparable to throwing in race gas on a 93 program. You may see some increase, but not a ton.

Maybe Im past that point where I care to squeeze every last hp out of my car, I'd much rather it run smoothly every day. (To be fair the issues I had with the kit were install related.. stupidly I followed DO's instructions and used the splitters they provided instead of soldering. They were good at replacing the fried controller though... As I understand it the pump also had to be replaced after 3-4 years as well)

Really sucks that Vast closed up shop, meth would have been easier to add with a free software update.

At that point you must add a solid tune compensating for the meth. Pulled 122whp out of a friends car by tunning for meth on the dyno (disclaimer, its a turbo big block mopar that runs 7s)

[sabbySC]

Re: Methanol Injection Group Buy

Thanks Lenny, that was indeed an unmodified APR 93 tune, the gains were huge.

The reason for such large gains without additional tuning is simple. Most OTS tunes trim fuel in the low and mid range to increase economy, while lean is mean can be true, the addition of the extra high octane fuel (methanol) in the mid section adds tons of torque. Most OTS tunes also request overly aggressive timing, the reason is that all modern ECU's have the ability to adjust (pull) timing in accordance with perceived knock. The cooler intake charge as well as the higher relative octane while not adding anything to the OTS tune allow for the tune to eliminate timing pull due to high timing correction factors( 5deg or so). That may not seem like a big deal but believe me, not pulling 5deg is huge.

A custom tune taking full advantage of w/m injection would be set to include a measured volume of w/m as part of the final AFR, this is where failsafes become very important, if for some reason your w/m system fails you could run dangerously lean in a high boost, high timing situation. Not many tuners are willing to send out a balls to the wall w/m tune as it can get dicey to say the least.

Running w/m on a NA car has several benefits outside of the custom tune, as it increases octane and reduces intake air temps the timing increases to max allowable

Here is some light reading about w/m

Clicky Benefits of w/m

http://www.challengertalk.com/forums/f53/everything-you-need-know-about-water-methanol-injection-5271/

This is only partially true.

Meth only makes power by reducing the intake temperature and increasing the effective octane rating. What this really means is that unless you are limited by either high IATs or excessive cylinder pressure you wont see added hp.

In the real world, this means you can turn up the boost more and adjust your tune accordingly.

As far as ots tunes are concerned, you don't make more power by advancing timing, the gains one will see would come from using water/meth to reduce whatever factor is keeping the engine from experiencing optimal timing. The tune would ideally be setup for optimal torque as per some dyno tuning.

[Mantis]

Re: Methanol Injection Group Buy

I am not certain what part was partially true, you succeeded in rewording what I posted. If you are referring to the comment I made about lean mid-range tunes, please feel free to contact 034 MS as that statement was taken directly from one of it's authorized Internet staffers. If you adjust your progressive controller to spray early and full on early, also adjust your w/m mixture (more to 25/75 or 10/90 w/m) accordingly, you will be surprised at the mid -range kick you can get

I clearly stated that an OTS tune is often overly aggressive and suffers from timing pull, w/m can help negate that by adding to the RON of the fuel in the rails.

[sabbySC]

Re: Methanol Injection Group Buy

Ok to clarify.

Bosch ecus target lambda at any time when load is not rising or dropping at a crazy rate, and/or ecu is not in open loop. So ots tuners do not detune, or attempt to lean up the low rpm, low load portion of the ecu in order to get better fuel economy, thats just the way these ecus run.

Also octane does not equal power, you only need whatever octane to suppress pre-ignition, any more and you are likely loosing power. Water meth will decrease spool and if your tune was spot on before hand it will decrease power output if not tuned for.

what I am saying is OTS tuners are not overly aggressive, they tune for optimal torque output with their optimal setup. If you have hardware weaknesses than your tune is not to blame. Ninety percent of the time meth is used as a bandaid for a weakness in the setup. I know in my case, that is what I use it for, to compensate for an undersized IC core, and it works wonderfully for that purpose.

If you add meth, you should really re-tune to get optimal power output. Otherwise, some people will see gains and others wont based off where their setup is hardware wise. It is not fair to make a blanket statement that everyone is going to benefit from meth injection.

That being said, anyone in Calgary, with a forced induction car, who is pushing their compressor to its limits, is going to benefit from water/meth injection. At higher altitude your compressor isn't as efficient. That's why all those yankees make bigger numbers than us on dynos.

One more thing to consider, water meth has been known to shorten the lifespan of drive by wire throttle bodies if injected pre TB. I personally would only inject post TB, but that is just me.

edit - by optimal torque I actually mean to say MBT or mean beast torque

[Mantis]

Re: Methanol Injection Group Buy

Ok to clarify.

Bosch ecus target lambda at any time when load is not rising or dropping at a crazy rate, and/or ecu is not in open loop. So ots tuners do not detune, or attempt to lean up the low rpm, low load portion of the ecu in order to get better fuel economy, thats just the way these ecus run.

Also octane does not equal power, you only need whatever octane to suppress pre-ignition, any more and you are likely loosing power. Water meth will decrease spool and if your tune was spot on before hand it will decrease power output if not tuned for.

what I am saying is OTS tuners are not overly aggressive, they tune for optimal torque output with their optimal setup. If you have hardware weaknesses than your tune is not to blame. Ninety percent of the time meth is used as a bandaid for a weakness in the setup. I know in my case, that is what I use it for, to compensate for an undersized IC core, and it works wonderfully for that purpose.

If you add meth, you should really re-tune to get optimal power output. Otherwise, some people will see gains and others wont based off where their setup is hardware wise. It is not fair to make a blanket statement that everyone is going to benefit from meth injection.

That being said, anyone in Calgary, with a forced induction car, who is pushing their compressor to its limits, is going to benefit from water/meth injection. At higher altitude your compressor isn't as efficient. That's why all those yankees make bigger numbers than us on dynos.

One more thing to consider, water meth has been known to shorten the lifespan of drive by wire throttle bodies if injected pre TB. I personally would only inject post TB, but that is just me.

edit - by optimal torque I actually mean to say MBT or mean beast torque

Thanks for info, I will say that we will agree to disagree on a couple major points regarding Bosch ECU's and those that tune them

[CGY_GTI]

Re: Methanol Injection Group Buy

A seperate tune for meth will net you much larger gains, as it allows you to significantly advance you timing. This combined with lower intake temperatures allows you to create more horsepower. Either way the gains are worth it, and for the price of the kit you cannot beat it anywhere.

Do you mean a separate ECU tune? Or does this tune go in to the controller thing that comes with the kit? If it's for the ECU, I don't have the option to change programs unless I buy the GIAC Flashloader which is $150 or 200, and even if I did, I would then need to have a separate file written to take full advantage of the w/m injection? Am I understanding this properly? Haha sorry, I haven't really had a chance to research this yet.

[R-Audi]

Re: Methanol Injection Group Buy

Do you mean a separate ECU tune? Or does this tune go in to the controller thing that comes with the kit? If it's for the ECU, I don't have the option to change programs unless I buy the GIAC Flashloader which is $150 or 200, and even if I did, I would then need to have a separate file written to take full advantage of the w/m injection? Am I understanding this properly? Haha sorry, I haven't really had a chance to research this yet.

In order for you to fully utilize the meth injection you would need a full custom tune. You can get away with running the GIAC 100/104 tune, but that means you would also need to buy that tune and the flashloader. The controller that comes with the kit simply tells the pump when to turn on based on Throttle body B voltage. (I believe thats the wire it goes too, its been 4 years since I installed my last one.. I think the new ones are on a boost port.) In the case of Devils own, they have a start pump setting and a max pump setting.

[All_Euro]

Re: Methanol Injection Group Buy

I've been running w/m for a couple years now and love it. These D.O. kits run off the MAP sensor voltage & the progressive controllers are best suited for slower spooling turbos… although I run one on my KO3 anyway. A custom tune is ideal but Unisettings, & some tuning savvy, is all that's needed to take advantage of these kits.

Scott at USRT passed along some sage advice on Vortex, that I took, to get or make yourself a pressure gauge for your w/m system. I found some pretty big differences in thought vs actual pressures in my system. Here's an example of the gauge…

http://www.usrallyteam.com/index.php...oducts_id=1526

[stuvy]

Re: Methanol Injection Group Buy

Don't let this deal slip away.